Hey Marc... A while back you made the statement that Jesus said the God of the Old testament was his father. Can you show me where that is? For the past several days, I've been trying to find it in the bible and can't seem to. Reading the OT passage again today has me all goofed up again. I won't go into all the thoughts that are rolling around in my mind, just suffice it to say, I don't understand Gods behavior and as far as I can tell it's 180 degrees opposed to who Jesus was and what He taught. How does one make sense of Yahweh who snuffs the life out of a couple of well meaning people with some kind of fire shooting out of his presence and Jesus who taught unconditional love, and hangs out with and mercifully heals the worst of sinners and ultimately lays his own life down willfully for all? Does anyone else ever question this kind stuff? I know mainstream Christianity teaches this, but I'm just not seeing it. Any light you or anyone else can shad on the subject would be appreciated.

Thanks...

...rich

Psalms hit a cord with me today. It's a perspective I have been pondering lately and am praying on. Someone I know seems to be pursuing a path of self and darkness right now and it hurts my heart because I don't want to see destruction come to them. At the same time, I have prayed for this person to know the deep love of God for many many years. If this is the path that leads to this love, than I want to cheer. If this path leads to destruction of the heart though, I am not really sure how to stand. So my prayers remain the same daily. Lord, open the eyes of their heart so they can see YOU. The one and only true God. There is no other and following "our own path" leads to pain and sorrow. May love penetrate the fibers of my friends' being and may their faith and joy be renewed. Help me to know how to pray and help me to see the things in me that need to die Lord.

I hope you are all healthy and well. Have a restful weekend and remember that we only have today...nothing else is guaranteed. Live this moment like it's your last. From the heart. Love those around you, forgive, laugh and embrace life. It's a blessing to know you all. :)

Look at Luke 22:70 where Jesus is asked if He is the Son of God and He replys "You are right in saying I am".

Good Morning!

Initially I was taken back by the story of Nadab and Abihu... but as I tried to understand why this happened I wondered these thoughts: We assume that they were "well meaning people", as you said Rich, and yet we don't know that. They had just been ordained as PRIESTS... with all that entailed -- could it be that they let the "power and status" go to their heads? Could they have miss-used the power given them in a way that glorified them instead of God? One could argue this in many directions -- I guess when it comes to me second guessing God's motives -- I am one who chooses to give God the credit for knowing what He is doing. Only God knew their hearts and I must trust Him to deal justly with each of His children from His knowledge and "God" discernment. I tend to agree with Marc, and think that they were consumed just as a natural consequence of being in God's presence and somehow using this privilege inappropriately. If they were not serious about following the protocols God had given them -- then maybe they would have been some of those drug out from the Most Holy Place by the cord tied to their ankle at a later date. Maybe God prevented many others from taking God's presence with less than reverence and respect by their example? Maybe there are many possibilities. I trust that if Nadab and Abihu are safe to be in Heaven then they will be... but I trust God to make that call. And, I thank and praise God that Jesus stands in my place and atones for my sins that I may approach the Throne and bow before my Almighty God. I bless Your name Father!
In His Love,

I agree with everything you said, LuDell. At the same time, I totally get your struggle, Rich. I still haven't reconciled all of this either, but I do know that I have a personal relationship with Jesus, and through Him, I have a personal relationship with Yahweh God, the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and somehow I have great peace with that knowledge. Obviously physical human life has always been fairly sacred, since we're created in God's image, and He commanded that we not kill, but at the same time, I think that the physical existence of one person, especially during an age where the Holy Spirit did not dwell within an individual, may have had much less significance in comparison to God's overall intention toward our race. I still believe that the God of the O.T. had mercy and love at heart for mankind, but He seemed to have much less patience toward wickedness.

I have been stuck lately by a connection in my head that was sparked by Rich's comments a week or so ago. Jesus has power over the laws of physics that God originally set in motion, seen by His miracles. No other man has been able to do the things He did, like calm storms with a word or change water into wine. This says to me that He's clearly of God. But the really great thing about that, is that He chose to do these things for the good of people. To reach out to their hearts and try to draw their attention to Him. He healed their hurts, calmed their fears, raised the dead. If God has the incredible power to do such things, AND always chooses to use if for our good, why would I worry or fear? Why would I not trust Him with everything in me, and every part of my life.

Sorry, so as not to confuse everyone, that was Nate working from home, not Candi. So is the remainder of my post continued:

Thank you Jesus, for covering me with your mercy and your blood. I know that I am completely capable of screwing up, and I have given God more than one good reason to condemn me, but He was willing to let you take my place in that punishment. Father, I revere your holiness, and your righteousness, but I am so grateful for your mercy and longsuffering. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Mysterious God and the great three in one!

Rich, in regard to your question, you might also take a look at the following passages: John 1, John 3:1-21, John 5:16-47. I think these are good starting points anyway. I'd love to know what you think after reading them.

Hey...

Still not sure if I'm talking to Nate or Candi here. :)

I'm sitting in a hotel in PDX and my computer battery is almost shot, so I don't have a ton of time here. I read both of the passages in John and it's clear that Jesus is the son of God. But what is still unclear to me is if God the father is the same entity in the cloud in the OT. To me, it seems they could be the same entity, but there are little clues that he may not be. As an example John 1:18 states "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." To me that seems very black and white that no one has ever seen God, that Jesus is the one who made him known. However, that is not the case with the entity in the OT. All kinds of people have seen him and he made himself known. Somewhere I think in Mathew (4?) it clearly states God is spirit. This OT entity has a physical form. It appears to be just our own speculation that God morphs from a spiritual being to a physical being as I cant find anywhere in the bible where it talks about God doing that, only that there is another entity that is physical, so we assume God must change back and forth. Can you see what I'm struggling with here or did I butcher the articulation process?

I also wonder aboutJohn seeing the spirit decending in vs 32. Was that something physical too? Comments?
Thank...

...rich

Sorry for the confusion, Rich. The posts by 'Candi' on this page only are in fact me, Nate. The ones back on the 11th were Candi herself. I logged her out and me in this time so as not to be more difficult.

Thanks for your response, I love the thoughtfulness going on in your brain. I get that you are looking for real clarity so that the truth can be crystal clear in your mind. I totally understand that desire, but I'm just not sure that's how God operates. Some things He spells out very clearly for us, other things He shrouds in mystery and says that we will never fully understand them in this lifetime. Paul talks quite a bit about the mysteries of God. The thing about the Bible is you have to look at both the micro level, as you are doing here, and the macro - overall ideas of scripture. The O.T. is full of prophecies that are clearly fulfilled in the N.T., not the least of which is Jesus himself. There are many Messianic prophecies, one of the most well known being Isaiah 53. I think the fact that the God of the O.T. was trying to tell His people ahead of time about the coming Messiah, and how to spot him, shows very clearly that the two are very closely linked. I don't think there's any way you can separate the two and still believe the Bible to be true.

There are times when I sit back and look at all the wild stuff I believe as a christian and Bible believer and wonder, "Am I totally off my rocker?" Because in light of our current culture and many world philosophies, this stuff is clearly very different. At the same time, when I look at other religions and ideas, it becomes more and more clear to me that I will never be able to live up to any kind of enlightenment or personal righteousness that will relieve my feelings of guilt or get me to some kind of heavenly state after this life. Christianity is about faith in a God who has done incredible things to reach mankind, not about mankind's ability to reach Him. Even the extensive requirements of the O.T. law were not about man attaining righteousness, but about redeeming us from our own sin that separates us from being able to be present with God. I mean, God walked with Adam & Eve in the garden because He wanted to be with them. After they sinned, it seemed that He had sorrow that they could no longer walk in fellowship together in the way that He had intended.

I know that there are really tough things to try to be OK with in the Bible, but for me, I would just say that God has revealed enough of Himself to me that I completely trust Him, and in so doing, I can be willing to let the mysterious things go. I hope you don't think I'm trying to give 'the right answer' or put some kind of bow on things for you, your perceptions are intriguing, and I appreciate you letting my share my perspective as you have shared yours.

Nate

Hey Rich - I wish I had an easy answer for you. Unfortunately, the text you're looking for doesn't exist. You're looking for a passage where Jesus says, "You know that God in the OT, that being that met Israel at Mount Sinai, THAT is my father." But that's not in the Bible. But there's a reason for that. Jesus was a Jew and he did his ministry in the context of Jews. It is absolutely clear from the text that Jesus clearly saw Himself as the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies of the OT, and in addition to that, that He saw Himself as at home within the religious context of Judaism. So, the evidence that the God of the OT is the father of Jesus is found in the assumption Jesus made in all his coversations about God. He NEVER said anything that could remotely be taken as a refutation of the God of the OT. He never came up and said, "Hey guys, you've been worshipping the wrong guy all along." Jesus self-understanding was as a Jewish man who worshipped the same God that was worshipped in the synagogue and the Temple. That God was Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. So, when I wrote that Jesus claimed

...that the God of the OT was his father, this is what I meant...

He clearly identified God as HIs father. (Matt. 7:21, Matt. 10:31, Matt. 11:25, for example.) And the context of these claims is talking to Jews in the context of the Jewish religion - so, if he didn't mean the God of the OT, then he was being deceptive, because the people listening to him would clearly have assumed that he was. In fact, this is one of the reasons that he was so offensive to the religious leaders. They clearly understood that Jesus was making claims about their God. If they understood that he was making claims about some other god, they wouldn't have killed him as a blasphemer. They would have attacked him as a pagan. But as it was they considered him a rabbi who was breaking the religious rules.

Thanks Mark and Nate. Not sure were on the same page, but not sure that were not. Geese, I swear, I guy needs years to study this stuff to truly figure out what's going on. Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and input. I sure have enjoyed the process.

...rich