Another possible explanation of God only allowing Moses to see God's back as He passes by could be symbolic. Could it be that God was saying that we may not be able to look at Him physically in all His glory, but we certainly can see Him and His flawless character through the results of His presence or passing through our lives. That often shows up through the action and attitude of those allowing the Holy Spirit complete access to their heart. Of course, we always have Jesus as the perfect example of God and His character even though the human body and face may not have been a clear picture of God the Father's body and face. Just my thoughts.

Blessings to you all!

Pretty trippy stuff going on in Exodus. WOW! Talk about wild. I remember doing this study the first year and somehow did not recall the slaughter that took place after Moses came down from the mountain. It seemed like a new paragraph I was reading. Wierd how that happens. I know that sometimes in the OT, I get a little rummy in the reading. Especially once we get into Kings/Chronicles etc. Lots of pillage and battle and my brain starts to check out. Thanks for listening to that little story of mine! lol

So the idea that God's hand covered Moses in the cleft of the rock is really cool. I was picturing Moses, looking really little compared to God's hand. THAT"S AWESOME! I wonder what His back looked like. Was He all glowy and shiny and radiant? Was there heat involved? I wish there was more to the story. It just ends so abruptly.
I imagine Moses seeing this GINORMOUS hand slowly move away from him as he peeks out of the cleft and sees this massive force of creation moving past gently. I wonder what God felt like in that moment, to be seen. I wonder if it pleased Him to share a part of Himself with one of His children.
I wonder if Moses was a little bit scared that it actually was happening or was this something normal to ask for? And that is the other thing...He is so bold in saying, "Show me your glory". EEK, that to me is a bit bold and almost demanding and yet God responds.
Boy my brain is in a whirl over this image this morning. I needed something to lift my eyes up today. Thanks Lord!
See you all through the day!
Blessings!

Hey Jim - Interesting thought. I like that symbolic interpretation. It's certainly true that God has left us to find Him by way of His actions and inferences in our world, rather than seeing Him directly. Jesus is the most direct vision we have of God, and I am certainly thankful for that.

Hope to hear from lots more of you today. Even if you aren't in the habit of commenting, just check in. Say, "Hi. I read today!" or let us know how we can pray for you or encourage you. Whatever. This little body can help strengthen you for the journey - if you let us.

In today's OT passage, something just isn't right. Marc, your describe the passage as "difficult," but I see it more like brutal and insane. First God gets beyond mad and is ready to kill everybody and Moses has to talk him out of it? Then Moses gets mad and sends a bunch of people through the camp killing their brothers and friends and neighbors? C'mon. That is so messed up I can't rap my mind around it. It's beyond messed up. It makes me mad. Is God who is mentioned here really the same entity that states we should love each other to the point of laying our lives down for our friends? In the NT, Jesus is just getting ready to willfully lay down his life for us. How can anyone reconcile this with that? It makes absolutely no sense to me. What am I missing?

Then, God would descend and hover over a tent in something described as a "pillar of cloud" (which seems pretty obvious that it isn't a cloud) and talks to Moses "face to face." Then it turns right around and says that Moses can't see Gods face. Ultimately, Moses slips into a crack in a rock, and God walks by backwards?

Something is not right here. This guy has a body, has a voice, has hands, has a face, is not omnipresent, get's really mad to the point he's ready to kill people, argues with Moses (I thought it was pretty gutsy of Moses to tell God to blot him out of his book), still sends a plague there way, travels in something described as a cloud, etc., etc. I'm sorry, but this just doesn't mesh with my current concept of God at all. You guys probably think I'm being sacrilegious or heretical, but I can't help it. It makes no sense.

I like your input. Never thought of it like that. It's nice to have you here. :)

Great insight, Jim.

Hey Rich, I get your confusion. I still have a hard time reconciling the God of the Old Testament with Jesus teachings about God in the New. The difference must lie somewhere in the rift - Jesus' death on the cross that provides complete forgiveness of sin. I still can't quite put my finger on how that makes the difference between the way God talks about the sacredness of human life in the NT versus OT. I don't think you're sacreligious, but there are certain unexplainable aspects of God and the Bible that you may just have to take on faith, even if doesn't make total sense. After all, God is God, and for many many reasons I believe He exists and Has shared himself with us through scripture. That said, He created this incredibly complex universe and all the life with in it, and He can do anything He wants with that. He can be omnipresent, yet visible to one person in one place. He can reveal part but not all of His glory if He so chooses. He can get angry when His law is broken, and employ whatever kind of punishment He sees fit for that. I don't get that sometimes, nor do I get how a person changes God's mind, when we know that God doesn't forget His own promises. Maybe He was just testing Moses, I dunno.

It does seem somewhat possible that because the blood of His own son had not yet been shed for mankind, He just had a lot less patience with unrighteous behavior. I tend to rest in the faith that I have that God is all powerful, and He knows the hearts and intents of people. Whatever judgement He brings based on that knowledge is His concern. Faith is the key word for me. I completely understand your desire to question what doesn't make sense, and I wouldn't tell you to stop doing that. I would only encourage you to trust what you know of God based on your relationship with Him, and know that His purpose and His will extend waaaaayyy beyond the realm of individual lives and choices. At the same time it's clear that choices and righteousness do matter profoundly to God, even for those of us who area already forgiven because of Jesus. Not sure what this means to you, but I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.

Hey Rich - this is exactly why I called the passage difficult. It's difficult to get our minds around what to do with this passage. There are many people who, in the past two thousand years, looked at brutal passages like this and decided that this couldn't possibly be representative of God as they understood Him. Even in the second century, within a few generations of Jesus, there was a religious "off-shoot" within Christianity, one of the Gnostic groups, that decided that the deity portrayed in the OT was in fact an evil god that Jesus had supplanted in the NT. So, you're certainly not crazy to wonder at this kind of stuff.

I don't have an easy answer for you that will reconcile everything. I have a few suggestions I can offer that have been helpful to me. But the biggest hurdle is this. Jesus Himself accepted the OT as the word of God, and represented that the God of the OT was His Father. This is where I have to get off the ramp to disconnecting the OT and the NT. If Jesus was God, then anything He says about the OT (or anything) is true. That means that accepting the OT, and sorting through what to make of strange and confusing passages like these, comes with accepting Jesus. If Jesus was not God, then not only is the OT a waste of time, but so is the NT and as a result, all of Christianity.

Next post, a few ideas for dealing with difficult OT passages.

First, I'd recommend seeing if you can find a copy of a book that I've found really helpful. It's called "Who's Afraid of the Old Testament God?" by Alden Thompson. (Find it here: http://adjix.com/4baf) It really digs honestly into these things and has some really strong scholarship behind it (but very easy to read and understand). Thompson was a professor of mine, and I know that his work on the OT has been very influential in this area.

Then there are a couple of things to consider, when reading:

1. We read from the perspective of an individual in an individualistic society where things like individual rights, personal happiness and fulfillment are accepted as normal for everyone. I cannot emphasize how strongly this mindset is NOT a part of the semitic world of the ancient OT. They did not think this way AT ALL. That means that the text was written from a perspective that is wildly alien to ours. Identity in this time was about tribe, family and father. Personal fulfillment was unheard of.

A good life was about respect and honor. A closer historical example to this is the ancient Japanese practice of sepaku, or ritual suicide. A samurai warrior who failed to complete an important task had dishonored his name and his families name, as well as his feudal lord. In extreme cases the warrior would kill himself by cutting his belly open with his short sword. To you and I this is horrifying. Suicide in our culture is seen as a terrible failure of self-esteem and the highest expression of self-hatred or hopelessness. But in ancient Japanese culture that was not the case at all. A warrior who committed sepaku was in fact doing - in his culture - the most honorable this he could, and restoring to his name and his families name some measure of honor. That sounds empty to you and me, but in that culture honor was more important than life. I share this example to point out the kind of cultural disparity that exists between us and the OT, especially the ancient OT.

Here's why this is important. First, every book in the OT was written within a certain culture. That culture shaped the meaning of the events and the words chosen. Understanding this as much as we can helps us in clearing away the smoke of interpretation. While I do believe that God inspired the writing of the Bible, I also believe that He did it through real people who were shaped by their culture. God worked with this - even when the culture had ideas that were not ultimately where God was heading. For example - in the NT Paul talks about appropriate behavior for slaves. Does that mean that God supports slavery? Absolutely not. But slavery was an undeniable part of the culture that Paul lived in, and Christians of that day were such a minority that there was no possibility of overthrowing the institution of slavery. Instead, Christians were taught how to follow Christ in the context of slavery. The ancient OT is the same. For example, God does not support child sacrifice. Why then did ask for this from Abraham? Because child sacrifice was the highest form of religious expression in the culture that Abraham lived in. God had to approach Abraham in terms that he would understand, before God was able to reshape Abraham's view of God.

I say all of this to suggest to you that things that look horrific to us when we read the text, might not have been perceived in exactly that way in that place and time. We'll come across another great example in the future. When Achan stole treasures from the city Ai, after God's express direction to destroy all the loot a similar judgment happened. Once he was identified as the one who had disobeyed, not only was he executed but his entire family. In our culture this is a terrible miscarriage of justice. But in that culture, Achan had polluted the nation of Israel with sin, and he had brought dishonor to his entire family. The sin of one man was carried by everyone he was related to. And removing the sin required this judgment.

Incidently - this same idea is why Paul suggests that when Jesus carried all our sins on the cross, that we all benefited from his death. So, the very same idea that seems to horrible to us is the very idea that offers us salvation. Interesting, huh?

On a different note, I'm interested in learning why is "seems pretty obvious" to you that the "pillar of cloud" wasn't a cloud.

Hey Marc...

Thanks for the response. I just ordered the book and look forward to reading it to see how someone makes sense out of some of this stuff. You made a great point about Jesus acknowledging the validity of the OT, although I would kind of like to see for myself where he says this entity is in fact his father. I hadn't considered that. I had some conversation with other friends of mine over the last few days who also made some good comments. One of them seems to think that back then when the people were under the law that God did not put up with a lot of crap and was very, very serious about things. You screwed up, you paid for it right then and there. Now, we who are under grace, do not have to catch the brunt of Gods wrath. I still don't know what to think about that, but I continue to have an open mind, I continue to seek and I truly appreciate you taking the time to make detailed comments directed toward my thoughts. In the past, through a bunch of study, I have been able to reconcile other horrors of the OT, which keeps me looking for answers for the ones I do not understand. One of the biggest ones for me was the flood. I spent years trying to figure out why God would destroy his creation. It made no sense to me either. I could never reconcile that "God is love" yet he appeared to kill everyone on the planet except Noah and company, in a fit of rage. However, after diligent study, I believe I've figured out why he did that and that it was indeed an act of love. So I continue to look for answers for other situations. Continued...

As far as your comment wondering about why I wonder if the pillar of cloud might not be a cloud, here is my current take on things. Some time ago I ended up doing an in depth study on clouds in the bible. The word cloud or clouds is used about 150 times in the bible depending on which translation you use. It's quite obvious that part of the time the term is used, it's referring to clouds as we know them today... Moisture in the sky that rain ultimately come out of. However the term is also used for something else that displays flight characteristics. They are described as "dense" and they ascend, descend, hover for long periods of time, they light up at night, loud noises emanate from them, they fly across the sky quickly, etc., etc. I don't have my notes on this computer, but there are a lot of verses that make me think that some of the clouds described are something other than the traditional cloud. As an example, in Isaiah 19 :1 when it says "Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it" I don't think God is sitting on top of a real cloud scooting across the sky. I also do not think that Elijah was taken away in a chariot that was on fire. I guess sort of in the way you say that you believe the bible is the inspired work of God but God worked within the social norms of those times, I think the people of that period used terminology of their time. Back then there was nothing in the sky besides clouds and birds. Nothing. There also was no light other than fire and lightning.

So, in light of this, I find myself wondering if people from that era were just using the terms they knew to try to describe something they didn't understand. Ad to that the fact that Jesus is coming back with an army in the clouds, and looking at the description of the New Jerusalem, I tend to think that God employs some kind of Technology... some kind of super high tech transportation. If you want to know the truth, I have the following suspicion.... Through movies and television we have been conditioned to think that anything coming from space is scary and evil (Star Trek, Alien, Predator, Fire in the Sky, War of the Worlds, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Starship Troopers, and one of the most deceptive in my opinion, Independence Day, etc., etc., etc.) We have continued to build up the star wars defense system, originally for military defense, and most recently to divert large asteroids if you follow any of that. On the Internet, the second biggest topic searched other than sex is aliens and extraterrestrial life. People are fascinated and scared of an alien invasion. I think disclosure is getting closer as more credible individuals such as astronaut Ed Mitchell attest to the existence of aliens. I can almost smell the deception. During the future battle of Armageddon, I think Jesus will return with his army piloting some kind of physical crafts, and the antichrist will rally the bulk of the military might to unite and fight against the returning Christ, believing we are being invaded. As crazy as I'm sure everyone thinks this sounds, it makes sense to me, at least at this point. And, for what it's worth, I suspect that God has given man 6,000 years on this earth before he shows up to rein for another 1,000 years.

Based on my estimation of things, I'm betting I will see all this come to fruition during my life time if I get to finish my years. All of my wondering's are subject to change based on further investigation, but I'm quite fascinated to see how things turn out and if any of my assumptions are somewhat close to correct. Time will tell.

Hey Nate... I'm so dragging right now as it's already 4:00 am and I should try to get a few hours of sleep before I have to get up, but I wanted to try to respond to you too. I'm on board with almost all of your comments here. The best comment you made is the last two words of the first paragraph. That kind of sums up my entire thought process regarding most fo the OT. :) The one comment you made that I'm not sure of yet is when you said "after all, God is God." I know that's what I've been taught, that God can and will do anything he wants to, he knows all, sees all, is everywhere, etc., etc., but I find so many things in scripture that doesn't support that kind of thinking. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take anything away from God, just trying to figure out what is really going on. I mean as an example, we have a God who basically spoke the whole freaking time, space, universe, galaxies, whatever, into existence, yet it comes to the battle of Armageddon and he kind of has to shoot it out with satan and the military powers on earth. Now granted he wins that war pretty hands down, but why was there even a battle to begin with? Why didn't he just speck it done? OK, I gotta go to bed. Sorry I didn't give you a more worthy response, but I'm beat. Look forward to more interaction later on. Thanks...

...rich

Hey Rich - thanks for your response. I really admire the hard work you've put in trying to reconcile the things that are confusing to you. I would give one bit of counsel. I think you're on the right track in this way - you understand that the words chosen by the writers of scripture have cultural connotations, and that they had to use the words they knew to describe things they saw. But I suggest that you're shooting way too low by reading these things as appearances of aliens and alien technology. God's power is far superior to any created being - which would include any temporal alien creature and their technology.

For example, the ideas you have about Armageddon are a real stretch for me. There are two "battles" in Revelation. One in Rev. 19:19-21 and another in 20:7-10. Neither one happens with God riding in on a cloud. In both cases Satan gathers all those he has deceived in order to try an overthrow God. In both cases there is essentially no battle at all since God in His power completely overwhelms them. No army or technology required. The image of a great "final battle" with the forces of good fighting the forces of evil is just not Biblical. There is only a battle because Satan and those with Him refuse to set aside their pride and acknowledge God as God alone. And in a moment of time they are overpowered.

I'm not opposed to the idea that there are alien life-forms out there, or even that they interact with earth from time to time. I've personally not seen convincing evidence of it, but I'm not opposed to the idea. However, God and his messengers are something altogether other, bigger. Perhaps some kind of inter-dimensional beings? That would make sense as the Bible described God as existing outside of time. But that's a metaphysical discussion that goes beyond what scripture lays out for us. Interesting, to be sure. But not central to the story of salvation.

Hey Marc... I think you misunderstood me. While I am suggesting God may employ technology of some kind, I'm in no way suggesting God is an alien. Quite the contrary. I'm wondering if satan is currently in the process of conditioning humanity to believe that Christ's return is going to be some kind of an alien invasion, which will allow him to rally the world behind him to fight the returning Christ. As I mentioned earlier, most of the world believes we've been visited by aliens and the Internet is ablaze with talk about it. Very credible people are coming forward and testifying that there are in fact aliens visiting earth, yet so far I've never been able to find any hard evidence of this. Movies, television, books... they're ramped with stories of aliens. I suspect satan uses all of these mediums to condition the mass consciousness of human kind. I believe somehow satan thinks he can actually defeat Christ at his return, but we both know that's not going to happen. I think the only difference between our lines of thinking is that you doubt God uses technology and I suspect he does. As one example, we recently read and discussed the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The bible states that God rained fire and brimstone down on them. I suspect that fire and brimstone did not just materialize in the atmosphere and wipe out S and G. My guess is that God most likely used some kind of weaponry to demolish the cities. There is just to many other instances in the bible where God appears to use some kind of weaponry that the people of that time struggled to comprehend and explain. Fire coming out of the sky, coals of fire being rained down, shots of lightning fired, hot thunderbolts, hills being torched, casting forth lightning, Gods arrows being shot, etc., etc.

Somewhere in Matthew we just read where Jesus (or maybe an angel, I can't remember) say's that He (Jesus) will return to earth on "the clouds" in great glory and power. I think he's going to show up in something that is being described as clouds. In my mind, the biggest most fascinating piece of technology out there that's probably heading this way as we speak is the New Jerusalem. Anyway, I'm rambling and really rummy and I'm to tired right now to look up a bunch of stuff and try to build much of an argument around my thoughts. None of it has anything to do with salvation anyway. It's just interesting to discuss. I do think there is a grand deception coming as described in the bible and I suspect it has to do with satan convincing the world that God is an alien. I believe there is a lot of "pre game" going on right now that supports that suspicion. I'm enjoying discussion, and wish I had time to really get into this subject, but I gotta get some sleep tonight.

PS... thanks for your patients and not showing me the door on this one.

...rich

Hey Rich - It's not a problem. It seems like you're really looking to try and understand all of this and put it together into a larger paradigm that makes sense to you. I think that's a good thing. I will share one thing that I wonder about as I read your perspective. In regard to the technology thing - I wonder if you're not doing to the text the same thing that you think the original authors did?

By that I mean, interpreting things through a lens of what you can understand. Clearly they did that. But I wonder if you're not doing it too, to some extent. You cited a number of examples (Fire coming out of the sky, coals of fire being rained down, shots of lightning fired, hot thunderbolts, hills being torched, casting forth lightning, Gods arrows being shot, etc., etc.) as things that you believe are really examples of God using some kind of technological weaponry. But isn't that just the limit of your own understanding? When God rained fire down on Sodom and Gomorrah, you said that you suspect that this stuff didn't just materialize, but that God most likely used some kind of weaponry. Why? Why is that most likely? The only reason I can see that would lead that to be the most likely solution is because that is the language that makes sense to us. We've seen weapons rain down fire. But that doesn't make it the most likely solution. It just makes it the solution that makes the most sense to us.

I guess I'd like to suggest again that you're shooting too low. Maybe God is capable of things that are far beyond what we can imagine. We think that it would take some terribly advanced technology to create that kind of power. But why don't we believe that God - the one who created everything - would be capable of creating that kind of power out of the very nucleus of the atom in the air? Why couldn't God call the sub-atomic particles of the elements floating around in the atmosphere above Sodom & Gomorrah into a new configuration? Physics tells us that there is nearly limitless power in the nucleus of a single atom. So we harness that power in a nuclear reactor. But that's because we cannot get to the power on our own. Why is it an assumption that God could not get to that power on His own, without technological mediation? Just something to think about.

I'll end here - this conversation isn't really core to my belief system. I don't think that God will exclude you from heaven because you think that He and the Angels travel around space in vehicles of some kind. There's a lot about God that is hard to wrap our heads around, to be sure. But I think His biggest concern is whether we trust our lives to Him through Jesus.

Hey Marc...

Your point is well taken and something I've spent much time considering, and to a certain extent, you may be correct. I am open to that. Again though, I'm not trying to take anything away from God, I just want to make sense of things. I also agree with you that none of my interpretations of God, or anyone else's for that matter, has any eternal implications anyway. Regardless if God is some kind of an infinite spiritual entity or a short bald guy, I firmly believe it's all about Jesus. Period. I think one of my biggest issues thought, isn't so much that I think God can't do something, but that he doesn't as far as what's explained in the bible, if that makes sense. I mean if you think about it, why didn't God just speak Sodom and Gomorrah out of existence, saving Lots wife, instead of nuking it. Why didn't He speak Eve into existence instead of anesthetizing Adam and pulling a rib. Why is there a war in heaven where satan is defeated and banished to earth instead of just banishing him without the war, why did it take Michael so many days (I think it was 21) to deliver a message, why the ark and the flood instead of a more magical kind of extermination, why does God present himself in a way that no one can look on his face and live? Was he incapable of manifesting himself in a way that we can tolerate? And what's with the New Jerusalem? Why does God show up in that instead of just materializing on earth?... I could go on forever with examples that don't ad up. The only answer I ever get from anyone on any of this kind of stuff is well, I guess God can do what ever He wants to do, and, well, I don't mean to be harsh, but I think that's a huge cop out. It's where people go when they've run out of ways to support their position.

It says in the bible, seek and you will find, knock and the door shall be opened, so that's what I'm attempting to do. I'm kind of on a quest for truth, regardless of where it takes me. I want to know what is really truth, not just what someone else has taught and I'm not willing to take what comes out of a pulpit, a book or from teachers as gospel, without question, or honest study on my part. Anyway, I said in my last post I was going to drop it and now look what I've done. :) Again, I appreciate your patents and willingness to let me ramble and share my true feelings vs holding my tongue and not rocking the boat like I have some many times in the past. I do enjoy this and feel that I come away with insight regardless if I come at things with such a different perspective.

...rich

*Whew* Rich, I don't know how you have any peace at night man. It must be exceedingly difficult to question everything. My prayer for you is that you would experience God in a new way... one that transcends all the arguments and gives your head a rest. I know the perception of a lot of people is that Christians are blindly following something that makes no logical sense... like we are too lazy or dumb to care about truth. The truth is that this is all very simple, WAY more simple than you are making it. Jesus talked about humbling ourselves as a little child and that is where the truth lies. This is all about trusting Him and having the simple belief that He is AWESOME beyond our ability to understand. Instead of trying to fit everything into a neat folder file reference system, try letting go. If you truly believe that Jesus died and rose for your sins, then rest in that and let everything else be an awesome mystery. Sit back and say, "Wow God! I can't wait to see how You work this all out."
I'm not copping out... really. I may not be a genius, but I don't believe God would make things so difficult and out of reach that only a genius could grasp His truth. He says He loves us all and wishes for not one of us to perish. That must mean it is pretty simple after all. He is who He says He is. Let go. You are not smart enough and you are not supposed to be in control.
(I mean that all in love. I swear.)

Hey Rich,

Don't feel bad about this thread of conversation at all. I value that you're seeking truth. I also deeply appreciate that you've been able to share your views in a respectful way without being disrespectful of people who think differently from you. That's increasingly hard to find, especially on the internet. I also really respect that you're trying to make sense of God and who He is. Glad you're here.

M.

Hey Candi... Thanks for the reply. It almost sounds like you took offense at my comments. If so, I'm sorry as I certainly did not mean to come across in any kind of offensive manor. Your point is well taken though and you and I are on the same page with regard to the gospel. Jesus died an atoning death, was raised and we are saved by grace through faith. It really is that simple, and I believe that. However, having said that, over the past several years I've been extremely fascinated by the bible, especially the OT and prophecy. It's not something I can just let go of. It's not my nature. The more I study, the more I'm fascinated. I certainly do not have it all figured out, but I kind of figure since God supposedly inspired scripture and states somewhere I think that it was written for our benefit, I should study it and study it with an open mind. I realize that a lot of what I've said thus far has probably raised a few eyebrows, and that's OK. I just see a lot of things that don't line up with what I was taught and don't necessarily line up with what is considered mainstream. I truly enjoy listening to everyone's input and feel that I glean a bit of insight from the interaction. You stated above that Christians are blindly following something that makes no logical sense... like we are too lazy or dumb to care about truth" and I want to make it clear that I do not believe that. I certainly think there are people in all walks of life who blindly follow all kinds of things. They are everywhere and in the past I've been one of them. But I do not believe that to be specific to just us. (continued...)

I also understand that there are things that none of us will ever really understand nor will we agree on. Heck, there are 38,000 denominations within the Christian religion alone. But regardless, at least for me, I have to continue to question, continue to study, continue to search. Jesus gave a stern warning for us not to be deceived. I don't think he would have said that if it wasn't a possibility. I will give you this though... there are many nights when I don't get much sleep. :)

Habagadah...

...rich

Rich, I wasn't offended. I was more feeling worried for your sake. The insistence and emotion I felt behind your arguments made me feel compelled to say something. I usually leave what seems like a "head" issue to people more suited to answering those kind of questions. But, the intensity I felt behind your words made me feel it might be more of a heart issue as well. I don't claim to be "suited" for helping in that area... it is just that I can't seem to keep my nose out of it when it has to do with someone's heart. Also, I am a pretty agressive person, so I am sure that was coming through in my words. I hope you have a little grace for a young enthusiastic girl. ;)
I am all for looking into things, it is just that your comments seem to revolve around you fearing you are deceived or have been lied to in your past. It feels like you are spending an awful lot of heart of soul on things that are very grey area. When Jesus talked about deception, it was a deception that would lead us away from Him... believing someone else to be the Christ... not a deception that would lead us to believe that God was a little different than He told us originally. Anyway, it sounds like you have the main concept nailed down. ..cont...

I will just go back to your dilemna of God having physical form and yet supposedly being omnipresent. My thoughts on that are that He is omnipresent, but that can look like anything. He is everywhere and yet how he chooses to portray that or not portray that can be pretty incredible. I have experienced His voice speaking to my heart during prayer and I know at that same moment He was most likely having conversations with thousands of other people. Also, I had an experience once in my childhood where I had God visit me in a physical form. Hard to explain and yet very real. He is my ever present help when I am need. God is here with me as I write to you and He is there with you as you read this. He could fill the sky with fire and show up in a giant cloud Lion King style. He could manifest himself in millions of physical Jesus clones that could follow us each around dispensing wisdom and healing and all the free hugs we could stand. =) We are talking about the Creator of this vast and complex cosmos after all. Couldn't He be anything and everything all at once, even beyond our understanding?
I am glad you feel free to share your views and that you don't run from these back and forths. It makes me feel a little more accepted in this space to know I can say what I feel without fear of being the "bad guy" that will get in trouble for it later. ;) You seem like you would be a really fun guy to hang out with. I hope we get the chance to meet you some day. (By the way, I don't know if you have made the connection, but I am Nate's wife. He is a lot more faithful than I am, so you will probably hear more from him during this whole study, but you can definitely expect me to pop up every now and then and push some buttons!)

Hey Candi...

OK, glad you weren't offended. No, I didn't put the Nate/Candi connection together. It's hard for me to keep things strait in my head with regard to who's who in here. :) I'm starting to get old and it sucks! Ya, I would like to meet you guys too as well as everyone else in here. I think it would be fun and probably a good exercise to finally meet people you only know through writing. Kind of a microcosm of what it will be like to finally meet God after just reading about him I think.

Hey, sometime if you are bored, write me and tell me about your experience with God in the physical you mentioned above. I've never head anything like that happen to me and I am intrigued by your experience. I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks for all your comments. I appreciate your perspective and your thoughts. Keep em coming.

...rich

If you want to shoot me your email address, I just might share that story with you. I don't think it is something I want to write about for the whole world just yet. Not sure I want everyone to know how crazy I am. ;)

Oh believe me Candi, we know. :)