Good morning! I'll be checking in later to see your reflections. Take some time to listen to what God might say in your spirit as you read. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Top of the mornin' to ya!...

The OT passage of yesterday and today is just more of the same for me. Stuff I just don't understand yet. I still can't make sense of most of it. I'll leave it at that.

In the NT passage, Mark 16:17 and 18 states "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

This verse has always bothered me a lot in that I do not have the capacity to do these things, nor does anyone I know. It's one of the verses that make me wonder if we are in error and believe incorrectly. The verse makes it sound like we should have this capacity if we are really believers. Anyone share this concern?

Also, for Marc and Jim, and anyone else that has interest I guess, here is a copy and paste of a link to an interview of a guy who seems to share the same line of thinking I do that I found this morning. At least we come at things with the same mind set. I think he states things a litter better than I do though. The interview was done back in the early nineties I think. If nothing else, I kind of find it comforting that there are others as evidenced by this guy, that seem to interpret things in a similar fashion as I do, although you might lable him as a nutcase as well. If you have the time, give this a look... http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=3dc7a84ee786318022fc

toodaloo...

...rich

Hey Rich, two things.

The Mark 16:17-18 passage is pretty hotly debated for exactly that reason. The one complication of that passage is that it seems to be a fairly late addition. These verses are found in no early - pre 4th century - manuscripts, and are not quoted or referred to in any of the church fathers writings before the 5th century. Scholars are pretty certain that this verse is a late 4th century addition. Which would mean it is likely not the words of Jesus, extremely likely that it is not a part of the original text of the Bible.

As for your video link - I don't think you or he are crazy. I still think that this is a painfully low view of God that tries to force an understanding of the text into our understanding of what is possible. It seems to suffer from the same flaw we've talked about the original writers having. If, for example, the writer of the Pentateuch was seeing God arrive in some kind of flying vehicle, but didn't have words for it and so he explained it as a cloud - He would be trying to force an explanation of what he was seeing into his own vocabulary and understanding. He would be inaccurate in his description, and flawed in his understanding. Well, it seems to me that this explanation is trying to do the same thing. We have a hard time imagining the "technology" of what God is doing in the Bible, and so we try to explain it and this sort of makes sense. Except for that we are, once again, trying to wedge our understanding of God and what he is capable of into a technology that we can understand. Why is it more logical to believe this, and less logical to believe that God is simply more powerful by far than would require vehicles and enormous flamethrowers? I just can't see that it is.

(Continued...)
If the God described in the Bible is real than He has no use for flying vehicles and enormous weaponry. A God who creates ex nehilo - from nothing with a word - who lives outside of time such that a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day, who is capable of restoring life, or even creating life instantaneously - would never bother with the mere mechanical contraptions of technology, no matter how advanced. On the other hand, if this god needs flying vehicles and weaponry in order to do the physical things the Bible describes, then He is not, in fact, the God the Bible tells us about. He is some kind of lesser being, a creature, like us but more advanced, and certainly if that's the case - then the Bible is a flawed and untrust-worthy document for us to be basing our lives upon.

Rich, I haven't seen anyone raised from the dead, but I have heard of many cases. I haven't experienced handling poisonous snakes, nor do I have a desire to - just to see if they will bite me and I heal. However, I knew of a church when we lived in Tennessee that tried it every weekend and it seemed pretty ridiculous to me. And the only deadly poison I have ever seen that didn't kill anyone was a bad batch of soup I made one time and fortunately there were no fatalities after consumption. I am joking of course. :)
I do know that many incredible moves of God happen and it seems very few people witness these events. Like they happen in little pockets around the world and are a testimony to a community God may be speaking to in those moments. Is it our lack of faith? Is it that God's miraculous events are reserved for special occasions? I have no clue what all of those wild things are about and I think they are really fantastic in nature and I would truly love to experience seeing something so incredible.

I have seen and heard angels and demons and have experienced casting demons out. I have spoken in tongues since a little girl but don't broadcast that as anything special or remarkable. It doesn't edify anyone. I have heard tongues spoken and been given the interpretation only to chicken out and not say anything and then see someone stand and give the same scripture I had been given. Talk about a "whoa" kind of moment. God does things in order and things make sense when it's Him. The rest, I don't know about. Resurrections happen in various places of the world and nobody can really explain why.

I have heard it many times in my traveling to Africa and in books I have read from people in Asia and beyond that we are a comfortable nation that doesn't need God. We have everything we want readily accessible. There is no need to lean on God when we can create, or pay for, or negotiate something in our lives. Most people in the world rely on God fully for their lives, their food, their day to day living. God is ever-present in all areas and that is their one true hope. Somehow in that dynamic, they see amazing things happen and God seems to show up on a regular basis. Why? I am not sure. There are faith-filled, God dependent people in this country and they don't see miraculous events happening around them. As a nation, we serve ourselves.
Not sure what the secret formula is on any of this but I do know that the scripture is fairly straightforward and there are records of these things happening regularly in Jesus' time. I also know that Jesus stated we will do these things and more. So lots of questions and I don't think there are as many black and white answers as I am sensing you would like to have. God is mysterious in nature. He is ginormous and all-knowing. Our brain capacity useage is a trifle compared to who God is and how he operates. We don't even begin to have a clue, due to our falleness and lack of understanding. Everything we are reading day to day, points to Jesus, how much we need God's grace and the fact that we are no different than our parents in Eden. We still pursue our own desires, our way, being right, looking good, seeking our value outside of ourselves through stuff, relationships, etc. It's so simple, that we have a tendency to get caught up in the details and forget the very nature of what it's all about. Love God, love each other. Period. I know I can forget so I am preaching to the choir here.
These are ramblings of a fellow traveler who is just as curious and searching for a deeper connection with the Creator of the universe.

Hi Jacqui...

Thank you for responding. I appreciate your perspective, but I struggle with it. A while back someone sent me a video of a kid sticking a bottle rocket in his bare fanny and lighting it (it was pretty funny). I remember thinking to myself, this is it. They finally have documented everything single thing ever done on video and published it on the Internet. While, like you I have heard about some of these same miraculous goings on around the world, none that I'm aware of are ever documented other than by word of mouth. There is no proof. On the other hand, I have seen video documentation that many supposed healing's are in fact not true healing's. People with cancer who claimed to be healed by someone quits therapy and dies. When I've discussed this kind of thing in the past with others, they almost always come back with "well I guess God just doesn't want true miracles documented with video." Then they usually offer a comment about how faith is ether required or will be strengthened. I suppose it's a possibility, but I kind of don't think so, or at least I guess I don't buy that at this point. Don't get me wrong, there are some very concrete things I see happen in my life that I believe are divinely orchestrated, so it's not like I feel I'm totally spiritually bankrupt, I just struggle with a lot of things. I agree with you that the bible is obviously full of wild and mysterious things, but, there are some things that seem extremely black and white to me. When it says we will do the things listed in Mark 16 and we will do greater things that Jesus did, I mean, that seems really cut and dry.

So when I can't do any of this stuff, nor can anyone I know who I consider a Christian, it really makes me scared and it's just not my nature (as you can probably tell) to just go with the flow if I can't get my head around something. I will say that I did make some rice one time that probably negatively out performed your soup. I added honey to it then tried to flame it with brandy. The dogs wouldn't even eat it. :)

...rich

Hi Marc... Thanks for the reply. Your points are well taken. When you talk about Gods power and ability to create something so magnificent as the entire universe, I totally understand where you are coming from. But at the same time that's where I struggle. I understand your argument that if we saw the wonders of God today, we would still struggle to find words to describe what we saw and would impose our own terminology to do so. I can go with that. But, I sincerely do not understand why an entity with limitless power and ability doesn't employ that power. It doesn't make sense to me that he would travel at all, be it in a "cloud" or some other kind of transportation. The bible is chalked full of things that flash, move, burn, vibrate, make noise, destroy things, none of which should be used by an entity that can speak all that is into being. It says somewhere that there is a war in heaven and Satan looses the war. Why is there even any kind of war at all? Also, I kind of disagree with your last statement. I think if it turns out that God in fact does use a flying vehicle and some kind of weaponry that does not mean that the bible is flawed and an untrustworthy document, only that what we've interpreted or understood about God is flawed to a greater degree then what we might imagine. Crap, there is so much more I would like to discuss, but I have to get going. One of these days a bunch of us are going to have to get together and mash a bunch of this stuff in person so we can exceed the limits of this wiki. I have way to much interest in all this and cant type worth a poo. Having fun though and value your contributions ...rich

"Love God, love each other. Period." Well said Jacqui, well said. It's easy to forget that when trying to figure everything else out.

Hey Rich, something I'll throw out there from the teachings of my Baptist youth: (granted, there may or may not be some validity to it). Basically, there's a school of thought about the periods of time in scripture and how God has chosen to deal with people in each of those time periods seems to be a bit different - these time periods were refered to as "dispensations". For example, there's the garden of Eden, when God walked with a "perfect" mankind. Then there's the OT before the law, the OT after the law where God's rules were made clear, and added to regularly by prophets, then Jesus mixes things up and tells us about a whole new way to think about God. Next comes the early church, where the disciples are casting out demons, speaking in tongues, healing, etc. (this might be what the passage here is referring to). Then there is the "church age" in which there are sub-periods that relate to the seven churches spoken about in Revelation. The thought was that what God said about these 7 physical churches also seemed to apply to seven periods of church history (this would start to explain things about the dark ages, times of much persecution, etc). By this line of thinking, we would currently be in the church of Laodecia, and might not necessarily have all of the miraculous gifts spoken of in the early church. This then led into the other periods of the end times, which there's no need to delve into today. THe point is, this may just be one man's way of structuring thoughts and scriptrual phenomenon into a format that can be more easily digested, or it may be good Biblical truth, I don't know. A lot of this does make some sense to me, and may be worth looking into.

Long story short, my wife (Candi) said something last night that made a lot of sense to me, though I would butcher the thought if I tried to quote it. Her thinking is that God does love His creation, but it was and is His choice to deal with us as He sees fit. God does seem to respond somewhat emotionally sometimes, as demonstrated by the fact that we have emotions. The exception is that He is perfect, Holy, and loving at all times. He decided when to send His son, He decides when to use His power, and He always does it for His glory nad out of His love for us. That's not to say that it makes sense, cause there is still a lot or stuff that don't make no sense to me, but I do believe He is so big and so good that I can get zen with being a bit outside the mystery. After all, how much more fun will heaven be when God really reveales Himself and does a fully interactive Discovery channel style demonstartion of His true might and perfection. I can't wait. I especially want to know what kind of Architecture God is capable of :-)

By the way, my comments are pretty silly compared to the great stuff that's already been said, just wanted to give you more stuff to chew on since I know you're a thinker.

Man, there has been some great heady conversation about God over the pat few weeks including today. Things like who He is, how He travels, why He does things both good and what we may percieve as bad, how the writers may have put their own spin on things and how the cultures may have made huge differences. It has been very interesting and informative as well as sometimes confusing. However, there are two very important lessons for me in all this dialog. 1) "Love God and love each other. Period." That is profound and if I do that I think God would be pleased. 2) This second lesson could be a matter of life and death - "Don't ever eat soup made by Jacqui or Rich!" :-)

Oh Jim. I love it when you are here!

;-) I think there's enough the start a new religion there, Jim!

A couple things - you say there are a whole lot of things in the Bible (and you give a list) that wouldn't need to be used by a deity who can speak into existence, etc. I disagree. For example, you identified the fire falling from heaven as a weapon. I wonder why it couldn't have been a chemical reaction at the molecular level. You talk about all the times God appears "in a cloud." Well - if God is going to appear to humans, he has to have a locus of presence. Even though he doesn't require it in his being, if he wants to appear to people, he has to have one. So, choosing to manifest in a body or a pillar of cloud or a flying cloud with fire isn't really a problem. He doesn't require it, but he certainly can choose it, so there's something there for people to focus on. As for the war in heaven - it's all about free will. He doesn't have to allow war, or disobedience. He could change it all with a word. But if he is allowing His creatures real free will, then this is what happens.

I'm very interested in one theme that keeps resurfacing in your thoughts, Rich. You mentioned above, and have mentioned before, that when you think about these things,

(Continued)...

it makes you afraid. Afraid that you aren't a good enough Christian, afraid that you've been misled about who God is, afraid that something is going to happen unexpectedly and you'll be unprepared, etc. I wonder if that fear is the motivation for you to work so hard to put this all into a framework that makes sense to you?

Maybe. I'm not sure. Several years ago I was involved in a really nasty airplane crash. The airplane exploded on impact and I was pinned inside. Both wing tanks burst and I was soaked with fuel. I was burned from head to toe very, very badly. I should have died. Most people will never understand the level of pain that's involved with that kind of thing. It's unimaginable. Eternal punishment has been described as a lake of fire where the unsaved will spend eternity. I feel like I got to experience about 20 seconds of "hell." I sincerely agonize over the thought of even the least of my friends having to experience that. It almost makes me cry as I write this to envision it. At this point in my life, I believe hell to be real, although it's not something I've done an exhaustive study on yet. The bible is chalked full of warnings not to be deceived. I take these warnings very seriously. When it talks about "a narrow path and few that find it" I understand that to mean that most of humanity will end up in hell, probably due to some kind of deception. However, out of all the people in the world I know, not one of them thinks they are headed to hell. Not one. When it said in the bible that followers of Christ will do things like lay hands on people and they will be made well, and I can't do that, nor can anyone else I know, it makes me wonder if I am deceived. I just can't write that off. continued...

The book of revelation talks about a deception that occurs during the end times, a period of time that I think we are very close to, that is of unprecedented proportion. It seems that almost the entire population is going to believe a lie. I do not want to be one of them. It would be to hard for me to explain in a simple post like this all the research and study I've done and share some of the suspicions I have or the conclusions I've drawn. I know everyone here probably thinks my thought process is somewhat unconventional at best. I've been excused from more than one bible study because of it. But the prospect of hell is the scariest thing I can think of. The scariest verse in the bible to me is "depart from me, I never Knew you", a statement that was made to people who obviously believed they were saved, just as we believe we are saved. I guess maybe you are right. Fear may be the motivating factor that motivates me to make sure I really understand this stuff and I'm not deceived, but I'm not sure how to change that. Thanks for your perspective. I will ponder that some more.

...rich

Rich, thanks for sharing your experience. It helps me to know more of you and understand where you are coming from and I appreciate it. My grandmother was burned head to toe in her 80's. 2nd and 3rd degree burns to her organs. It was horrific and for a year she was in the hospital getting skin grafts and only able to function with assisted care due to the severity of the burns. I don't think anyone has any idea how much pain one experiences. A small burn is painful and radiates pain for some time. But to have your entire body affected ...all that tissue, it must have been sooo incredibly painful to the point of not wanting to go on. I can only try to imagine it and that doesn't do it any justice. All I can say is that I am thankful that you are alive and just know that your presence brings something to the forum. There is a reason you are here. Just know you are loved by God and supported. We all are on this journey together, in different places on the road, but the same journey. We all have our fears and the beauty in being here together is that we can lift one another up in our faith. Spur one another on and challenge one another in the questions. You are great and so glad you joined this little band of believers!

Hey Rich, thanks for sharing that. I really appreciate knowing more of where you're coming from. It seems like in the future it will be good for us to spend some time perhaps looking into the issue of hell, and the deception. That might be fruitful study. I will tell you this - the level of motivation you have to make sure you and your friends don't miss out is such an enormous blessing. That level of passion and motivation makes up for a lot, I think. Keep seeking God's truth. I'm glad to have you in the mix.